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Thread: Euro 5 & diesels

  1. #1
    Regular Member ion's Avatar
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    Default Euro 5 & diesels

    Apologies if this has already been posted.

    I read in Auto Express last week that Euro 5 regs are causing refinement problems with diesel engines for up & coming models.

    From my understanding, over the last few years diesels have been made smoother by pre igniting the diesel in stages in the cylinders in advance of the main explosion, using DMF's, and using thicker gearbox oils, considerably smoothing vibration from the engine & reducing the clattery nature. Euro 5 means that this cannot be done, he quoted Ford & Vx as saying that all manufacturers are facing much noisier diesels again until they manage to solve the problem, which they are trying to do with more advanced electronics, higher fuel pressures, liquid engine mountings, and more reliance DMF's (great!).

    Also another problem is that all diesel cars will need DPF's, pushing up manufacturing costs and introducing more potential reliability problems.

    The guy commented on the new Insignia diesel which he said was superb but that the engine sent "spikes of vibration through the cabin" at low revs, very like the old fashioned diesels.

    So Diesels are about to become more expensive, less refined and more prone to failure.

    What do you think folks?

  2. #2
    Regular Member john_k_sri's Avatar
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    Vehicle : Vectra

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    Engine : 1.9 CDTI 150

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    You can't beat a petrol engine for refinement throughout the rev range IMO

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    Yup, petrol is going to be the way to go. From a long time diesel user, modern diesels are getting so complicated to keep emissions down, and the emission controls are ruining the fuel economy, that they're beginning to become pointless.

    I went from a 200hp CDTi Astra to the 1.8VVT Vectra. OK, the Vectra isn't as quick, but it's doing 6mpg less than the Astra did (4 mpg less than the Astra unmodified). Given petrol is 12p a litre cheaper...

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    Regular Member Ste's Avatar
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    Multiple injection events, ie pilot, main, and late injections has been around for a long time. Some diesel fuel systems can actually have 5 events per power stroke.

    But anyway. I would completely agree that the financial justification for diesels are diminishing. If you can get 40+ out of a 1.8 petrol, why would diesel be an option given that the car is more expensive to buy, fuel is more expensive per litre and fuel economy isn't a million miles better.

    What do 150 CDTi users get on motorways, 48mpg??? even 50 mpg?

    So on a cost basis, petrol at my local Asda is 92.9p / litre, diesel is 106.9p / litre.

    So over 10,000 miles (assuming no changes to fuel costs)

    diesel uses 200 gallons = 909 litres >> £963.50 (50mpg)
    petrol uses 238 gallons = 1082 litre >> £1005.31 (42 mpg)

    A difference of . . . . . £41.81 - - - is NOT A LOT over 10,000 miles.

    So over 30,000 miles thats only £125.43. How can that ever justify the extra initial costs, even though residual value will be slightly higher?

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    Regular Member Penfold101's Avatar
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    Well, the 1.8 is cheaper than the diesels, but the 2.0 Turbo Insignia is more expensive and by all accounts quite thirsty...

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    Regular Member Gsi3.2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ste View Post
    Multiple injection events, ie pilot, main, and late injections has been around for a long time. Some diesel fuel systems can actually have 5 events per power stroke.

    But anyway. I would completely agree that the financial justification for diesels are diminishing. If you can get 40+ out of a 1.8 petrol, why would diesel be an option given that the car is more expensive to buy, fuel is more expensive per litre and fuel economy isn't a million miles better.

    What do 150 CDTi users get on motorways, 48mpg??? even 50 mpg?

    So on a cost basis, petrol at my local Asda is 92.9p / litre, diesel is 106.9p / litre.

    So over 10,000 miles (assuming no changes to fuel costs)

    diesel uses 200 gallons = 909 litres >> £963.50 (50mpg)
    petrol uses 238 gallons = 1082 litre >> £1005.31 (42 mpg)

    A difference of . . . . . £41.81 - - - is NOT A LOT over 10,000 miles.

    So over 30,000 miles thats only £125.43. How can that ever justify the extra initial costs, even though residual value will be slightly higher?
    I have to totally agree here....the days of buying a 150 'for economy' are well over...in the current climate, the 18vvti's are the way forward...yes, you can get more power out of 150, but it's 'ecomony' argument is long dead now.....

    If you're really lucky and find a late DTi and run that on PROPERLY made homebrew Biofuels then you can beat the figures, but pump DERV is just way overpriced..

    and if it's euro 5 in a passenger car it will more than likey have a DPF...which can be bad news if it's not cycled correctly...Just wait for euro6 when they bring out further NOX controls..

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    Regular Member Sean-2.2Direct's Avatar
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    I can get 42 mpg out of my 2.2 Direct and thats just taking it easy cruising not planting my foot all the time so im happy with that

  8. #8
    Regular Member john_k_sri's Avatar
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    Vehicle : Vectra

    Trim : SRI NAV XP

    Engine : 1.9 CDTI 150

    Year : 2007

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penfold101 View Post
    Well, the 1.8 is cheaper than the diesels, but the 2.0 Turbo Insignia is more expensive and by all accounts quite thirsty...
    Yes, a tad more thirsty than the current 2.0T. But they have got the emissions down to about the same as the current 2.0T to keep it out of the next road tax group up. There are two other advantages 1) there is an auto version and 2) is available in 4-wheel drive. But it all comes at a price.

    Maybe the 'last hurrah' for the 2.0T engine. Next year there's supposed to be a 180bhp 1.6T coming out (same engine as in the Astra?), lower emissions, better fuel economy, and easily tunable to 240/250 bhp. From a 1.6T? I imagine BSR will have a remap available in due course.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Ste's Avatar
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    Euro 5 MEANS DPF - it's mandated for diesels.
    NOx control is something else though on passenger cars. It's been around for a while on HGV (using AdBlue solution) - since Euro 4 - Oct 2006.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Gsi3.2's Avatar
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    yep, so you can expect the use of adblue on your passenger cars when they go euro6.....so you know that they will tie that in to the dealerships don't you....mind you VW did trial an ADblue car for general release but i don't know if it made it into production..

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