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Thread: None the wiser after today's rolling road.....

  1. #1
    [Ex]Admin Duncan's Avatar
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    Default None the wiser after today's rolling road.....

    After today's rolling road that Ben organised, I'm none the wiser after the car doing two runs while on the rollers!

    With Stage 1 the car had been rolling roaded on two separate occasions at Track 'n Road in Rayleigh. Both times the figures were in the expected range, the latest ones being slightly higher due to, I think, the car having had a new boost pressure sensor to sort out a little glitch that was going on.

    So, with the new Stage 3, and based on BSR's figures (which have always been conservative) and the figures from Stage 1, I was expecting to have around 240/245bhp and 280/290lb.ft (flywheel figures).

    So I was second onto the rollers. I asked them to put the boost pressure measuring device on to record what was happening with the boost. Disappointingly they had no facility to measure the AFR (air to fuel ratio) to see how the car is fuelling - which can tell you a lot and also show if the fuelling is the reason for any unexpected figures etc.

    So, onto the first run. For some reason they do their runs in 3rd/4th, as opposed to 4th/5th which is what I've always seen in the past. I did ask why and it just seemed to be the way they do it. So the first run was done in 3rd gear - result was 224bhp (188.5 at wheels) and 238lbft (wheels) - so taking a conservative 15% for transmission loss that's around 273lb.ft Slightly surprising result for the bhp given that with Stage 1 it was 217bhp. At 273lb.ft the torque figure matched BSR's figure, although I was expecting a bit more as my engine seems to produce more than standard.

    Here's the graph for that run......



    As I said, the flat torque graph isn't odd/alarming given that the BSR one is like this........

    EDIT: (after something pointed out by Hideous in alter post) - On my first graph the torque drops to 200lb.ft at around 4500rpm. Converting the 200lb.ft wheel figure to Nm and then adding the 15% estimate to get a fly reading has it at around 310Nm. On the BSR graph it drops to that at around 5500rpm, so 1000rpm different!!



    So, onto the second run which they did in fourth this time. Results were 209.8bhp (flywheel) and 287.3 lb.ft (wheels). Using the conservative figure of 15% transmission loss that equates to around 330lb.ft at the fly!!! Now given that BSR quote 273lb.ft for a Stage 3, that's a massive 60lb.ft over that figure!! There's no way on earth that my car is running at 60lb.ft over BSR's figures. The bhp at 209.8 is less that I was getting with Stage 1 and only 4bhp more then BSR's conservative figures for Stage 1. Something very wrong there indeed!!!

    The graph of this run....



    Curves look nice enough, although it hasn't got the flat torque curve like BSR's - and the figures simply don't add up. Barely more bhp than BSR's Stage 1 figures and 60lb.ft more than BSR's Stage 3 figures!!

    EDIT: What I've also noticed, and it hadn't really clicked before, is that on the 3rd gear graph it has the power peaking at 3350rpm!! - on a petrol turbo?, I don't think so! Complete twoddle.

    The 4th gear graph has it peaking at 4200rpm - again complete twoddle. The BSR graph has the power peaking at around 5300rpm - exactly where you'd expect it on a petrol turbo with the rev range that the 2.0T has. [/EDIT]

    What was also interesting was that on the only other petrol turbo there today (Soulman's 2.0T with BSR Stage 1) there were inconsistent figures. I can't recall both torque readings, but his first run was 173bhp (which is what the car is bog standard) and then the second run was 198bhp. Helluva difference between two runs done minutes apart.

    I'm not moaning/complaining, just somewhat puzzled. I'm not going to get into any theories or 'accusations' etc. - simply no point. Although I was a bit puzzled by a couple of things I saw today which I'd never seen done elsewhere.

    Before today's RR I always said I was going to go back to Track 'n' Road to get a run there, given that the figures tallied with what was expected, and also to keep consistency by using the same RR. They also do an AFR (air to fuel ratio) reading as well, so that will add more data to the results.

    I'm simply going to scratch today's results and leave it there and go to Track 'n' Road. If those results show that overall things aren't looking right/are significantly down on expectations then it'll be time to contact BSR and have a chat. Given how the car is performing on the road though, I've got no reason to think anything is amiss. A couple of folks had a drive of my car today and I have a feeling they would be thinking the same.

    So, that was my RR day today! Long way to go to end up with something that simply doesn't make sense! lol Hey ho - C'est la vie!

    D

  2. #2
    Regular Member Caterman's Avatar
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    Vehicle : Signum

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    Default

    Strange figures there m8

  3. #3
    Regular Member Gsi3.2's Avatar
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    After chasing after that ferrari 308 today, i can confidently say that there is nothing wrong with the way it drives...as Mrs GSi said when she came back from her testdrive.. it pulls very strongly and will chirp the tyres in 3rd given enough boot..

    as ever, and as we discussed...it's back to tracknroad ideally...they have run it in the past to give you baseline figures and stage 1 figures..so it makes sense to get them to run stage 3 figures and to get the A/F ratio measured as well...they have the kit, and know your car as well...

    as ever.. a different rolling road, and a different day out..

  4. #4
    Regular Member nutron's Avatar
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    Vehicle : Vauxhall

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    Well they did have the facility to read your air/fuel ratio and other figures but it would have taken about half and hour to set up.

    As for the two results from the other turbo, it ran 198bhp remaped; then he reverted it back to standard for the second run of 173bhp which sounds about right to me.

    The fourth gear run was not torque limited by the software which is why it continued up to a higher peek. They may have deliberatly not put a limiter in for the higher gears or it might be a misstake, get on to them and ask the question.

    All the figures looked right but if you're not happy with them then you should definatly double check them else where.

    Look forward to seeing your next set of results.

    P.s.

    They don't run it in 5th because of the danger posed by the speed it can reach.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Gsi3.2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    Well they did have the facility to read your air/fuel ratio and other figures but it would have taken about half and hour to set up.

    As for the two results from the other turbo, it ran 198bhp remaped; then he reverted it back to standard for the second run of 173bhp which sounds about right to me.

    The fourth gear run was not torque limited by the software which is why it continued up to a higher peek. They may have deliberatly not put a limiter in for the higher gears or it might be a misstake, get on to them and ask the question.

    All the figures looked right but if you're not happy with them then you should definatly double check them else where.

    Look forward to seeing your next set of results.

    yep..if you're ever going to know what you've truely gained you have to stay on the same set of rollers...i know weather conditions etc on the day will play a part in the readings, but you can't beat the same rollers for tuning..


    Nice guys at Red-dot as well...really helpful..all in all an interseting day out for me.. and i wasn't even running..

  6. #6
    spoons
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    If anyone can find a rolling road that produces higher figures, let me know... I'll be there like a shot !!

  7. #7
    Regular Member Gsi3.2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    P.s.

    They don't run it in 5th because of the danger posed by the speed it can reach.
    I had a dangerous speed out of it in 4th today. let alone 'flat' in 5th....

  8. #8
    Regular Member mark1319's Avatar
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    As you say D you would know if there was something wrong and RR's always throw someone's results up in the air. There was a few off results which proves that something was amiss with the RR. Go back to where you got your previous results from and guaranteed you'll get the expected results, as usual different RR different results.

  9. #9
    [Ex]Admin Duncan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    Well they did have the facility to read your air/fuel ratio and other figures but it would have taken about half and hour to set up.
    Yep, I know - but at the end of the day the facility wasn't there i.e. offered. I know this fancier kit took longer to set up on each car, but they couldn't even do the simple lamda sensor up the exhaust either.
    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    As for the two results from the other turbo, it ran 198bhp remaped; then he reverted it back to standard for the second run of 173bhp which sounds about right to me.
    I was under the impression that he did a first run remapped and got the 170 odd reading, then another remapped one at 198 and then he went to standard and got the 173 one as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    The fourth gear run was not torque limited by the software which is why it continued up to a higher peek. They may have deliberatly not put a limiter in for the higher gears or it might be a misstake, get on to them and ask the question.
    It'll certainly be the sort of questions I'll be asking if the runs at Track 'n' Road give similar results.
    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    All the figures looked right but if you're not happy with them then you should definatly double check them else where.
    Well, not all did - there were a few that also didn't seem quite right, but in relation to mine - yep, I'll definitely be going back to the place I've been to a couple of times before.
    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    Look forward to seeing your next set of results.
    Me too!
    Quote Originally Posted by nutron View Post
    They don't run it in 5th because of the danger posed by the speed it can reach.
    It's the first time I've ever heard that. RRs I've been on so far have always run it in fifth.

    D

  10. #10
    Regular Member nutron's Avatar
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    What results were out? You keep saying that but the evidence seems to be lacking. For Duncan to be out accellerating mine and Spoons' cars low down it would have to be making simular or more torque, so those figures fit the evidence. Also the 3rd gear run was exactly as it should be, torque limited bang on.

    I'm in agreement that Duncan should go somewhere he has been before to compare figures before and after but all the standard cars were vertually bang on, a few bhp either way so what SPECIFICALLY was a miss?

    p.s.

    definatly remaped-198 / standard-173, I was there

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