engine cranks but won't start after rebuild.

[Littlepetebob]

HI thought id throw my 2 pence in.... ive just done an engine transplant it was on a net so petrol but i had a similar issue in that it would crank and crank over and over but not run, now the net is petrol so i may be wasting your time, i was convinced everything had gone over to the new block, i was meticulous in putting it back together, anyway when it come to start it for the first time key in i could hear the pump kick in then the saddened look grew on my face the more it turned over. I was convinced it must be just air in the fuel lines so i kept trying eventuyally i gave in and went for a cuppa came back out to cast my eyes over everything and i noticed a earth from under inlet manifold was not bolted to engine... how had i missed that... anyway touched it against engine and everything sprung to life under the bonnet the throttle body made a noise everything on the engine electrical needed this earth... after bolting it back on it started first turn of the key!

my point to you is while mechanically your engine rebuild is fine i would be double checking looms and plugs even the earths because i would never of guessed it be a 10p size ring not bolted on stopping it from starting

Best of luck!!!

[Lao]

I'm sure every idea counts. That's what's nice here.

As I mentioned my problem and solution I forgot to say that I had no errors logged. So, sometimes Tech2 doesn't point the cause.

[BaconSarnie]

Yep your right there Lao. The information you get here from people who just want to help is invaluable, I'm still waiting on a new crank sensor and I'm very confident that nothing has shorted out, the f is because I had the bumper off, same reason my blinkers were going nuts, gotta tell you I thought I'd ******ed the ecu though. I miss driving the car and can't wait to see what it feels like after a rebuild, I stripped every from the top half then stripped the individual parts down - turbo, intake manifold, throttle body the lot. One question though, the throttle body is always in the fully open position, should it be like that? If there is a problem is there a fuse or relay for the throttle? This weekend oould be the one, there's a running joke at work where people are constantly quoting me by saying "next week, definitely next week"

[BaconSarnie]

Right, I've u plugged the crank sensor. For the life of me I can't get to the bolt holding it in as it's awkward and I need a longer skinnier torx bit, mine would fit the bolt but just want get I to the small gap to get at it. Can someone clear something up for me please? 1st thing: mechanic lad over the road says by disconnecting the crank sensor it will work off the cam sensor, this true? 2nd, the car won't fire up on easy start - is this because easy start needs diesel being injected as well and won't fire up on its own? 3rdly I have an idea, if I take out the injectors and turn them 180 so they are sticking out if they spray diesel then it's the timing and if they don't spray diesel then it's the crank sensor not sending a signal to the ecu? Thanks in advance, I'm about to pull my hair out.

[BaconSarnie]

Nope, trying to crank the engine without the crank sensor in doesn't mean that the cam sensor will take over and do its job. OK I'm taking the mechanic out of the equation because even I had Mt suspicions that wouldn't work, but process of elimination right? What I can say categorically is that when it goes to fire up on easy start it stops itself, almost like something is getting jammed when combustion wants to happen. It cranks fine but when it bites it stops. So just to confirm: I timed the engine up using a timing kit. I didn't take out the valves because I did a leak test and they looked seated. Everything is plugged in. So from here putting the sensor aside as I believe this is a mechanical issue, I think no I've got bent valves or a con rod is bent. My theory on the valves is some are bent and slowly close back up under the force of the valve spring, therefore no compression (but then there would be interference) or the con rod is taking power away from the starter motor and when it tries to fire the result of damage to the con rod makes it lock up when it goes fast or under force.

[BaconSarnie]

Moderators im really sorry, im honestly not bumping but trying to ask the right questions as i think about where i am next with this problem and i will limit myself to just answering replies - i realise there are other people on this forum who need help, again my apologies to you all. Ok so, taking into account all of the above and after listening to the engine trying to come to life it has encouraged me to ask this final question before i forget my thought process and i dont want to go off track... when she tries to fire up it sounds like its being stopped by combustion trying to happen - i discounted this entire issue being about the mechanical side of it, however ive learned to listen to whats going on inside the block. The starter motor is straining to keep momentum when it tries to fire and stops dead, i am really not happy and genuinely confused at the same time because i bought and used the vectra timing kit. Ever since i put the head back on easy start will not work, but it did before i took the head off.

SO HERE IS MY QUESTION (finally) How do i time the engine using the timing kit after replacing the head? Do i get the No1 piston TDC as per the timing kit crank bit then get the locked out cams (done by the plunger bit popping into the groove in the camshaft) placed on top of the already timed block? (this is what i did by the way) There are no guides on how to put together an engine and time it from fresh. Where should the cam position be in relation to the piston when putting the head back on? I think ive relied too much on the timing kit and heres what i would like to try next:

Take off the head (confirm the valves arent bent for piece of mind) make sure the No1 piston is TDC and on the cusp of starting its downward stroke and placing the head back on with cams locked in position. Because honestly i couldnt tell you where the No1 piston is or what cycle its at in relation to the valves, i know where they should be, but obviously they arent, i think. Getting desperate and sick now guys, any and all help would be amazing, im so bummed out right now.

I dont want to call the scrappy to take the car away, im not a mechanic and i know im the problem, not the car. Everything is there just not where its meant to be, i thought timing would be pretty relaxed on standard non pedigree racing ingines but im starting to learn that those tolerances count.

[BaconSarnie]

Lonely in here. Anyways I've done something bold, very bold. As the engine sounded like it was fighting itself when trying to start I took off the rocker cover to look at the firing orders. As per the 12 o clock tip ex lines the firing orders would not have been 1 3 4 2 mainly because on No1 it was on its compression stroke without taking in a fuel and air mixture. Instead No4 was going through an intake stroke first meaning it would be first to go bang. So I have put the tip ex mark to 6 o clock with cylinder No1 tdc and it's respective intake cam Is poised ready to let in fuel and air as it starts it's downward stroke. I've manually cranked it and get no resistance. I'm just not sure about turning it over and something bad happening. Just to reiterate, the original timing marks meant that No1 at tdc was on its downward stroke whilst it's respective inlet cam was on its compression stroke. No wonder she wasn't starting. Penny for your thoughts guys.

[troutybrown]

Lonely in here. Anyways I've done something bold, very bold. As the engine sounded like it was fighting itself when trying to start I took off the rocker cover to look at the firing orders. As per the 12 o clock tip ex lines the firing orders would not have been 1 3 4 2 mainly because on No1 it was on its compression stroke without taking in a fuel and air mixture. Instead No4 was going through an intake stroke first meaning it would be first to go bang. So I have put the tip ex mark to 6 o clock with cylinder No1 tdc and it's respective intake cam Is poised ready to let in fuel and air as it starts it's downward stroke. I've manually cranked it and get no resistance. I'm just not sure about turning it over and something bad happening. Just to reiterate, the original timing marks meant that No1 at tdc was on its downward stroke whilst it's respective inlet cam was on its compression stroke. No wonder she wasn't starting. Penny for your thoughts guys.

If you'ved turned it by hand and its ok try it

[BaconSarnie]

Ty trouty, that gives me a wee boost of confidence, honestly this is stripping me down this car. Anyways, ive got pics here for you guys to look at...

In this pic i have the rocker cover upside down, the notches on the gears dont match up, is this ok?
20170422_133240.jpg

This is the timing mark the car came with, and below that pic is where that mark positions the inlet/outlet lobes. The closest set of lobes are for cylinder No1. Sorry the top one is sideways.
20170422_140825.jpg

20170422_140838.jpg

Now, i have spun the cam shaft round to 6 o'clock where i believe it should be for cynlinder No1 being TDC, here the inlet lobe is going to allow the fuel and air in, whereas above, it went straight into compression mode at 12 o'clock....
20170422_141252.jpg

20170422_141311.jpg

So with the last 2 pics the rocker cover bolts down and lets me turn the engine by hand in its position. Note the inlet lobe ready to follow straight behind the intake stroke for No1 piston. The only thing i dont like is the exhuast lobe is pretty much right behind the intake lobe, is this as it should be or something to do with those notches not lining up? Im getting no interference with the rocker cover at 6 0'clock.

Reason i did all of this is because i really dont trust any of the tip ex marks and i was relying 100% on the cheap looking timing kit without actually knowing where anything was. Hope the pics are ok, theyre all at a stupid angle, but top right corners are the intake lobes.

[BaconSarnie]

I really dont like how they assembled this rocker cover, cant take anything out or take the top off to see how it operates when its bolted down and timed up. Another thing is that factory notch on the cam pulley, i might be wrong here but it serves no purpose, totally useless and just adds to confusion.